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Talk:Rinnegan
Kekkei Mora Since Jin no Sho lists Hagoromo as Kekkei Mora user, should this be classified as Kekkei Genkai? Was it anywhere ever stated to be Kekkei Genkai?--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 14:38, June 17, 2015 (UTC) :What. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:39, June 17, 2015 (UTC) ::He's saying that the Rinnegan was never classified as a kekkei genkai and because Hagoromo was listed as a kekkei mora user, then this is also a kekkei mora.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 14:56, June 17, 2015 (UTC) :::And it's not a joke? • Seelentau 愛 議 14:57, June 17, 2015 (UTC) ::::And if you have time to make a joke yourself, you have time to actually answer him yes? Everything I read is second hand, is there a source that actually calls the Rinnegan a kekkei genkai or not?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 15:00, June 17, 2015 (UTC) :::::Yes. And I really don't know how you can't answer this question yourselves. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:06, June 17, 2015 (UTC) ::::::I can't read Japanese. Hence why I said "Everything I read is second hand", and I've reading off bad translations before.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 15:08, June 17, 2015 (UTC) :::::::I understand, but the databook's been out for a few years now. Don't you think any mistranslations would've been corrected by now? :/ • Seelentau 愛 議 15:11, June 17, 2015 (UTC) You would think, but as I said, I've been going off wrong translations before.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 15:13, June 17, 2015 (UTC) :Hagoromo's page has it listed Kekkei Mōra.--Kuroiraikou (talk) 15:16, June 17, 2015 (UTC) ::I know, that's because people here still think it's our job to correct the manga. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:20, June 17, 2015 (UTC) :::@Kuroiraikou: Assuming the databook is not wrong, kekkei mora functions differently than kekkei genkai but we are not given any reason as to how. One of the few things we do know is that some things that are listed as kekkei genkai for others are listed for kekkei mora for Kaguya and Hagoromo. If memory serves me correctly, Kaguya's Byakugan is listed as a kekkei mora, yet we know it is a kekkei genkai for the Hyuga.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 15:29, June 17, 2015 (UTC) ::::Kaguya's Byakugan was never called KKM. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:30, June 17, 2015 (UTC) :::::I was under the impression nothing under the impression that in her profile she had the kekkei mora symbol or character, or whatever marking they had, instead of a kekkei genkai mark, like other known users of a kekkei genkai.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 15:34, June 17, 2015 (UTC) ::::::Yes, that's true. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:42, June 17, 2015 (UTC) ::::::@TheUltimate3, with same reasoning we must delete Rinne Sharingan from Madara's infobox, then. :| ./ Rage gtx (talk) 16:58, June 17, 2015 (UTC) @Seelentau: Hence, based on that, everything Kaguya has is (currently) listed as Kekkei Mora, which is why the article reads "We don't actually know what this crap is." @Rage gtx: I'm going to assume you mean remove Rinne Sharingan as a kekkei mora from his infobox. Does the databook give him the kekkei mora classification? If not, then yes it should just be kekkei genkai.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 17:27, June 17, 2015 (UTC) :TU3, by adding the Rinnegan as a KKM for Hagoromo or the Byakugan as a KKM for Kaguya because they lack the KKG classification, we're attempting to correct the official sources. That is something we should never do. It's simply not our job to decide what's correct and what isn't. We're here to document, not to create our own versions of the manga. But apparently, I'm the only one who thinks so. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:35, June 17, 2015 (UTC) :@TheUltimate3 yes Madara has only KKG characteristic. :And here some of my HO on this case: Hagoromo has KKM because to achive Rinnegan Senju and Uchiha must mix Asura's and Indra's chakra/genes/stuff into themselves - so literally Rinnegan bloodline encompassing of Senju and Uchiha(two different bloodlines). In Madara's and Sasuke case Rinnegan is KKG because their dojutsus that evolved into Rinnegan were KKG(Sharingan) - mutation that not occured naturally. Now about Madara's Rinne Sharingan - he gained that eye after becoming JJ and using partial Biju Transformation(not different from Naruto gaining fox pupils when goes mad or Bi using tentacles) since parent technique that allowed Madara become JJ was KKG(Rikudō Jūbi Kyūin) so partial Biju Transformation that allows to Rinne Sharingan pop out is KKG as well ah and Obito who used Biju Transformation with same eye must be listed as well. Ok that's IMHO wanted to share. ./ Rage gtx (talk) 18:49, June 17, 2015 (UTC) ::@Seelentau: Except we're not correcting anything this time. The databook did not list kekkei genkai for those two, but they were listed with these things. And because we literally know nothing about what a kekkei mora is, all we can is state what we got; "Databook says these are kekkei mora. We don't have any more info than that". For once, we are just pointing out what the databook is saying and going any further. ::@Rage gtx: That is fantastic and in no way can be verified. So thanks for that but it doesn't help one way or another.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 21:04, June 17, 2015 (UTC) :::The databook doesn't label them as KKM, as I said. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:08, June 17, 2015 (UTC) Sasuke's Rinnegan Given the information in Gaiden 700+8, can we say that Sasuke *does* have the same Rinnegan as Hagoromo and Madara, but he also has an enhanced state? So for the forms section, how about "The Rinnegan" and "Sasuke's enhanced Rinnegan"? --Jizo 悟 (talk) 04:36, June 19, 2015 (UTC) :It's him simply using Rinnegan and Sharingan/Mangekyou Sharingan at the same time. Unlikely Madara who had to switch (or at least it seemed to be the case) Sasuke can use both doujutsu at once. It's Semi-Rinne Sharingan if you will :D--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 07:01, June 19, 2015 (UTC) Picking this up again: How likely is it that the Tomoe aren't part of Sasuke's Rinnegan and he really has Hagoromo's Rinnegan, just with the Sharingan's tomoe "shining through"? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:19, June 27, 2015 (UTC) :I 'unno. I always figured his Rinnegan was special because it only appeared in one eye. Are we sure Kisihomoto didn't make a mistake and just forgot to draw the tomoe? I mean, it wouldn't be the first time he screwed up Sasuke's eye.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 17:03, June 27, 2015 (UTC) ::Yes, 100% sure. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:25, June 27, 2015 (UTC) :::Right, an entire page was dedicated to the tomoe re-appearing with statement that his ocular powers have returned. It's unique for 2 reasons: as mentioned, the Rinnegan appears just in one eye and there's 6 tomoe even though one Sharingan has only 3. So maybe it's a variant after all? And it turns into the basic one Hagoromo has when Sasuke is out of juice.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 02:15, June 28, 2015 (UTC) ::::I think it's because Sasuke's Sharingan is MS, so to somehow to represent it on Rinnegan Kishi did 6 tomoe. ./ Rage gtx (talk) 02:30, June 28, 2015 (UTC) :::::More likely for it being an EMS. Even Sasuke's regular MS had just three shapes, three ellipse-ish shapes. Omnibender - Talk - 18:51, June 28, 2015 (UTC) Momoshiki & Kinshiki Can someone to add Momoshiki & Kinshiki to the info box since the Boruto Movie Plot confirms that both of them wield the Rinnegan [1] --DC52 (talk) 04:59, June 23, 2015 (UTC) :That would take some infobox tinkering. As they're movie characters, they tend not to appear in infoboxes that collect info from other articles, if the article in particular lists something from the manga or anime. Omnibender - Talk - 14:44, June 23, 2015 (UTC) :Why add Rinnegan to their info boxes considering the provided link is an unconfirmed source; fake plots are always made and cactua is not reliable. NewGenToneri (talk) 14:56, June 23, 2015 (UTC)NewGenToneri ::^lol. @Omnibender: The Rinnegan were already put into their infoboxes, it seems to work, doesn't it? • Seelentau 愛 議 15:25, June 23, 2015 (UTC) ::Nevermind. Well, it's basically the same as with Boruto and his Chidori... • Seelentau 愛 議 15:32, June 23, 2015 (UTC) ::: @Seelentau: Boruto and his "chidori" were seen in the trailer. Momoshinki's and Kimishinki's visuals have not even been seen yet and the cactua post does not have any credence really so I'd halt on the Rinnegan in their infoboxes. NewGenToneri (talk) 17:49, June 23, 2015 (UTC)NewGenToneri of awesome. ::::What do you know about her credibility? Do you speak Japanese? • Seelentau 愛 議 18:10, June 23, 2015 (UTC) ::::: @NewGenToneri The japanese raw of the Boruto Movie Plot is 100% legit (1), Cacatua's translation was approved by the translator mod of /r/naruto 2. Since Momoshiki & Kinshiki both have a rinnegan in each hand (3), we have already seen either Momoshiki or Kinshiki (4) --DC52 (talk) 19:01, June 23, 2015 (UTC) ::::::5) I approve of the translation as well. :) So I guess that confirms the Byakugan as well. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:04, June 23, 2015 (UTC) ::::::@Seelentau Alright I'm sorry, now I feel like a derp, haha. Just wanted to confirm its credence. NewGenToneri (talk) 20:33, June 23, 2015 (UTC)NewGenToneri Red Rinnegan It seems like they won't be changing the Rinnegan's red color in the Boruto movie, so that needs to be added accordingly. Or do we wait? • Seelentau 愛 議 11:10, July 19, 2015 (UTC) :I think we could add it.--JOA2012:31, July 19, 2015 (UTC) :: Considering that the movie is screening in less than two weeks, i think we should wait before saying Momoshiki's rinnegan is red, because Kishimotos art depicts it as light purple/pink. --DC52 (talk) 22:47, July 23, 2015 (UTC) Fake Rinnegan? Looking at this quote: " To that end he (Kabuto) successfully recreated the Rinnegan in Madara's reincarnated body, though these fake eyes didn't have full access to the original's abilities." I can't help but think this might be a misinterpretation. I thought that the problem with Madara's Rinnegan while he was a reincarnated shinobi was that they were indeed reincarnated Rinnegan- something that should have been as powerful as the real thing anyway. He was missing his Rinnegan when he died, though, as he gave them to Obito, and he was also really old. Are we to assume that Kabuto made his corpse younger and created a set of Rinnegan? Diamonddeath (talk) 09:49, July 28, 2015 (UTC) Image change That new image of Madara,and his Rinnegan doesn't look clear.Is there a better quality pic or something?--Vacent (talk) 14:59, July 30, 2015 (UTC) :Sadly not :( but Black Zetsu's upcoming flashback might depict it clearer. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 18:56, July 30, 2015 (UTC) Clarification Okay. Made an edit to this page regarding Momoshiki, but I was a bit conflicted. Should we say that Momoshiki's ability to absorb chakra on contact with his Rinnegan is unique to him like Limbo and Amenotejikara are to Madara and Sasuke, respectively? Or should we say that Momoshiki can use the Preta Path? I mean, I know we classified Sasuke as a Preta Path user due to him using the Deva Path (Chibaku Tensei) and by extension the Six Paths Technique and affirming his chakra absorption is the Preta Path, but still... need some clarification is all. 23:37, August 7, 2015 (UTC) :I'd say it's unique, since it also grants him the techniques which he absorbs. Preta Path, to my knowledge, doesn't do that.--Omojuze (talk) 23:40, August 7, 2015 (UTC) ::Good point there. 23:41, August 7, 2015 (UTC) Pertaining to Momoshiki's rinnegan For most of the movie Momoshiki has a red rinnegan, but after absorbing Kinshiki, Momoshikis red rinnegan turns into an ordinary light-purple rinnegan. This seems to suggest that Momoshiki's red rinnegan is some sort of de-powered rinnegan or sub-rinnegan, because after absorbing a large ammount of chakra Momoshiki's rinnegan turned the normal light-purple colour. --DC52 (talk) 02:53, August 10, 2015 (UTC) :It make sense. I hope this is clarified in the movie book. --Lukas Pessoa Dantas (talk) 03:13, August 10, 2015 (UTC) ::It's not. Literally nothing is explained in that book. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:12, August 10, 2015 (UTC) @Seelentau, Does Momoshiki ever even call his red palm eyes rinnegan? He never demonstrates any of the Six Paths Techniques. After absorbing Kinshiki, Momoshiki's palm eyes turn light-purple, so they are most definitely rinnegan, also the teaser plot says Momoshiki has palm rinnegans. Can we say for sure that the red palm eyes are even rinnegan? --DC52 (talk) 20:59, August 10, 2015 (UTC) :Yes. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:09, August 10, 2015 (UTC) ::Does the movie or its databook explain where/how he got the Rinnegan?--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 09:06, August 11, 2015 (UTC) :::See above. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:01, August 11, 2015 (UTC) ::::Well that's just perfect. I thought Rinnegan is a Hagoromo thing and Shiki is supposedly older than Hagoromo, ugh.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 10:05, August 11, 2015 (UTC) :::::@Elve, Should we remove the part that says the rinnegan was first manifested by Hagoromo, because Momoshiki is older than Hagoromo --DC52 (talk) 22:12, August 14, 2015 (UTC) ::::::Is he older tho?--Omojuze (talk) 22:15, August 14, 2015 (UTC) ::::::: @Omojuze, I'l ask OrganicDinosaur, she told me she has finished reading the Boruto Movie Novel --DC52 (talk) 21:59, August 15, 2015 (UTC) Awakening So the person needs both Asura and Indra's chakra, not just the DNA of the Senju and Uchiha?Cloudtheavenger (talk) 18:46, September 1, 2015 (UTC) :Correct, One who is Asura's reincarnation and Indra, both need one or the other chakra in order to awaken the rinnegan, but in this case Naruto and Sasuke were the last ones, unless one gets both of their chakra.— Kinglink15 (Kinglink15) 19:08, September 1, 2015 (UTC) Supreme Rinnegan According to Sasuke Shinden: Book of Sunrise, Sasukes rinnegan is a Supreme Rinnegan "His left eye that was slightly peeking from his bangs had the supreme Rinnegan". --DC52 (talk) 16:43, December 6, 2015 (UTC) :Yeah, the Rinnegan is really the supreme dojutsu. So? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:54, December 6, 2015 (UTC) When and why did this site begin using novels as proof of anything? But yeah, that line doesn't mean what you think it does. Rinnegan is the supreme ocular doujutsu. There is no Supreme Rinnegan, and regular Rinnegan which is what you're getting at.--Vacent (talk) 17:02, December 6, 2015 (UTC) Separate Sections for Users Partially inspired by this forum thread, is there any particular reason we don't have this page set up to be like the Mangekyō Sharingan page, with individual sections for different sets of eyes? We now have knowledge of several sets of Rinnegan awakened under different circumstances, each with differing abilities and sometimes even appearances. In fact, it appears no two users of the Rinnegan have awakened it in the exact same way. Obviously, the shared abilities like the Six Paths, chakra receivers, and so on could be placed under a general "Abilities" section, just like we have for the Mangekyō. Thoughts?--BeyondRed (talk) 16:24, January 11, 2016 (UTC) Hagoromo as first wielder That doesn't seem to be right, since we have Momoshiki who is from Kaguya's era before Hagoromo, not to mention not only Momoshiki possessed the Rinnegan himself but also recognized it in Sasuke, leaving it very dubious that Hagoromo had it first.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 16:37, June 3, 2016 (UTC) :Hagoromo was not the first known wielder, Momo is.. but going by Momo's knowledge of the Rinnegan it seems that there are other Otsutsuki before him who have had it, thanks to the many different divine trees in the Universe. QuakingStar (talk) 18:02, June 3, 2016 (UTC) ::Just to be nitpicky, we don't actually know if Momoshiki and Kinshiki are actually older than Kaguya and Hagoromo. We know Kaguya expected other Ōtsutsuki to come after her, but not who specifically. For all we know, the two came to be after Kaguya and Hagoromo, and were simply the ones to manage getting to earth, like they inherited the job. We do know Kinshiki absorbed his previous guardian, this could have been happening since Kaguya's time. Omnibender - Talk - 18:27, June 3, 2016 (UTC) :::Ant to be more nitpicky, Hagoromo was the first person to wield Rinnegan in the Shinobi World. --JouXIII (talk) 18:35, June 3, 2016 (UTC) ::::Pretty sure Momoshiki and Kinshiki are from Kaguya's era. How else would she know that love wouldn't work on them and that they only understood power if she hadn't met or known them? --Sarutobii2 (talk) 18:45, June 3, 2016 (UTC) :::::She could have known how other Ōtsutsuki were by reputation. Omnibender - Talk - 18:52, June 3, 2016 (UTC) :::::: Even if we supposed Momoshiki and Kinshiki were from Kaguya's era, we have no idea when Momoshiki awakened his Rinnegan. It could've been eons ago, or two minutes before his introduction in the movie for all we know. It stands to reason that, regardless of when he obtained it, he'd have the knowledge to recognize it in someone else (such as Sasuke). Furthermore, we don't know if Momoshiki and Kinshiki had some knowledge of what was going on on Earth and therefore knew the name of the Rinnegan via this information. In short, we don't know who awakened it first, only that Hagoromo is the first person credited with wielding the Rinnegan. Ten Tailed Fox (Talk) 20:12, June 3, 2016 (UTC) Considering Momoshiki and Kinshiki had no idea that Tailed Beasts are a thing and were surprised, I would say Boruto movie is their first contact with Earth--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 20:51, June 3, 2016 (UTC) 'evolution of Sharingan' Why exactly do we say that Sharingan evolves into Rinnegan? Is it actually true? Wasn't it just Orochimaru and Kabuto's hypothesis, which is incorrect. As shown, both the Sharingan and Rinnegan have origins within the Rinne Sharingan, so Rinnegan can't be evolution of the Sharingan, they are 2 pieces of the original form.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 17:13, December 1, 2016 (UTC) :I agree with Elve here, it's not true. EDIT:Err... where does it say that it's evolved form is the Rinnegan? the article also talks about the hypothesis.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 17:23, December 1, 2016 (UTC) ::http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sharingan#Evolution the Rinnegan article also talks of Sharingan becoming Rinnegan, but where did people get this from? It was only a hypothesis of Orochimaru and Kabuto, probably knowing that both clans are descended from Hagoromo, that combining powers of Uchiha and Senju makes the Sharingan progress beyond, into the Rinnegan. But they got it wrong, combining powers of Uchiha and Senju isn't enough to manifest the Rinnegan, it has to be chakras of Asura and Indra, likewise, the Sharingan doesn't become the Rinnegan, they are separate doujutsu.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 17:51, December 1, 2016 (UTC) I would agree, but if the Sharingan wasn't needed to get Rinnegan than Naruto would have awakened it when Hagoromo gave him half of his chakra. You still need the Sharingan to get Rinnegan... QuakingStar (talk) 18:02, December 1, 2016 (UTC) :Honestly, it's a jumbled mess. But in just about every instance, Sharingan has to evolve into a Rinnegan. Otherwise what would basically have to happen was that the Sharingan eye would have to be removed and replaced with a Rinnegan, which we know isn't the case. For example, Madara's eyes evolved into a Rinnegan after he got some Senju in him (ha!) and for a more fudge you example, the anime shows that Hogoromo started out with a Sharingan before getting the Rinnegan. Hell I even believe we've seen with Sasuke uses up too much chakra his Rinnegan devolves back into a Sharingan. So the Hypothesis isn't actually wrong. Just a weird case where the originator of the dojutsu; the Rinne Sharingan, devovles after successive generations.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 18:48, December 1, 2016 (UTC) ::@Quaking, that's not how it works, Hagoromo gave Naruto different part/aspect of his chakra than to Sasuke. Think of chakra as genome, just like different genes make it up, different aspects of chakra can be shared/inherited. Take Ten-Tails for example. It's not like Shukaku lets say has 10% of the Ten-Tails' chakra volume, rather it has 10% of the Ten-Tails' chakra genome/sequence. Obviously Naruto and Sasuke weren't given exactly the same chakra, otherwise both would have received same traits. ::@Ulti, what the Sharingan is, is special brain chakra exhibited by certain members of Uchiha Clan, Indra and possibly Hagoromo, excreting into the optic nerve, affecting it, it's Sharingan only when said chakra transforms the eye, otherwise it's just an ordinary eye. As Madara demonstrated, he could switch from Rinnegan to Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. If his Sharingan had evolved into Rinnegan, it would have disappeared with him being unable to access the power, which is not the case. And when did we see that?--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 19:32, December 1, 2016 (UTC) :::Actually, switching is not an argument since all we know that MS is surely an evolution of the regular Sharingan, but it doesn't mean that its user cannot use Sharingan anymore; in fact, all the MS users preferred to use norman Sharingan and switched to the MS when it was really necessary. Yet we always call MS a Sharingan evolution and have no doubt about it. :::Either it doesn't seem that Hagoromo gave Naruto/Sasuke different chakra types, it's the same Six Paths Chakra all the way the only thing which differs is the infuence it has on each of them. SPS affected Sasuke's eye nerve and turned it into the Rinnegan, but it was possible only due to the eyes already being influenced by a special chakra and developing into Sharingan > MS (> EMS). "Sharingan" component is an innate trait of all the Indra's reincarnates, the same way as "body" component always belonged to those of Asura. Hagoromo's chakra just strenghened both of these components and upgraded them to the new stages which Hagoromo himself possessed. So technically, Rinnegan is still a Sharingan evolution, it surely doesn't stem from it, but is a more advanced and ancient version of which got dulitued over the time and thus can be recreated only with certain conditions met. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 19:50, December 1, 2016 (UTC) :::I was talking about Madara switching to EMS to cast genjutsu, showing that both doujutsu were available, meaning the Sharingan didn't become Rinnegan. And I disagree about that, they didn't receive the same chakra. If Sakura were to receive the entirety of Hagoromo's chakra, she would get Rinnegan (possibly Sharingan too) and Six Paths Senjutsu, there is no requirement of one possessing eyes and getting eye upgrade and the other possessing body and getting better body or whatever. Also 'Six Paths Chakra' isn't some special chakra type, it hasn't been stated anywhere, so I have no idea why we label it chakra type and state it does this or that, it's only a description and could possibly just mean 'Hagoromo's chakra'--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 20:01, December 1, 2016 (UTC) :::Bump, besides a hypothesis in-series which was wrong, it has not been stated anywhere that Sharingan evolves into Rinnegan/Rinnegan is higher level of Sharingan or wharever, there is no evidence for that, but there is plenty contrary evidence for that, so I can't comprehend and help myself but wonder, why is it stated as a fact over this wiki? I miss the days when ShounenSuki was around and things got double checked. Nowadays, this wiki has many things that we have no idea what they are, what they mean, what the context is, but we pretend that we do in the articles (example Six Paths Chakra, should be removed as a chakra type and as a section in characers' abilities, since we have freaking no idea what it is or if it even is chakra type) I don't understand why it has become a problem to say: 'It's unknown what x means, how x works etc.' instead we must make up something and pretend it's factual. :Bump--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 00:48, December 6, 2016 (UTC) ::With regards to the Rinnegan, I still think the eye basically went down a line of devolution, weakening, whatever you want to call it. But if it makes you feel better, remove it. ::In regards to the Six Paths Chakra, I don't know why it is considered it's own chakra thing. I think it was Seelentau that stated that all instances of "Six Paths Chakra" did imply that it was it's own separate thing or something.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 14:02, December 6, 2016 (UTC) :::Techically, Rinnegan can still be considered a Sharingan evolution, since it's a necessary part for Rinnegan awakening. Not every Sharingan can evolve into Rinnegan (it usually must contain Indra's chakra, i.e. it's his Sharingan or that of his reincarnates), yet here can be no Rinnegan without Sharingan, to put it plain and simple. We don't know how Hagoromo achieved it in manga (already after the birth/some time afterwards, with/without Sharingan as intermediate), but anime has shown us the version that includes Rinnegan's evolution from the Sharingan as well. Rinnegan = Asura's body power + Indra's eyes power, thus it can be considered an evolution of both of the components, depending on the perspective (which component was the innate trait for the user). Ravenlot 27 (talk) 14:40, December 6, 2016 (UTC) ::::I'd still point out to the whole Rinne Sharingan just getting progressively worse with each generation as being enough honestly. Yes I know brain chakra makes the Sharingan and then magic turns that Sharingan into a Rinnegan. But the crux I'd argue is that in absolutely zero cases did the Rinnegan appear in anyone without first having the Sharingan first. Madara had to have the Sharingan, then years after sticking Hashirama into, his Sharingan turned into a Rinnegan. When Sasuke got Six Paths power, his Sharingan turned into a Rinnegan. In the anime (yes this happened no, you don't get to ignore it) Hagaromo started out with a Sharingan before it turned into a Rinnegan. The only one I believe does not follow this trend is that guy from the Boruto movie and I have no idea how he got Rinnegan in his hands.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 18:52, December 6, 2016 (UTC) :But my entire point is that the Sharingan doesn't turn into the Rinnegan. It's a separate doujutsu awakened by recreating Hagoromo's chakra. Let me make it easy to understand for you people, Naruto expanation style: * Rinne Sharingan is vodka with juice * Sharingan is juice * Rinnegan is vodka * juice doesn't become/transform into vodka, they are both there as separate unmixed ingredients Sharingan is part of Indra chakra. When Asura chakra is added, the Sharingan doesn't become Rinnegan, the Rinnegan is awakened as a separate doujutsu, meaning both Sharingan and Rinnegan are present.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 04:21, December 7, 2016 (UTC) ::The point is, doujutsu aren't drinks. By this logic, Sharingan also doesn't become an MS, since MS can be activated/deactivated at will and thus is a separate doujutsu. The awakening of one doujutsu of the higher class doesn't automatically make the previous doujutsu of the lower class completely unavailable, as evidenced by all the MS users and two Rinnegan users (Madara/Sasuke). Otherwise, MS must be treated as a stand-alone doujutsu and no Sharingan evolution, but it clearly isn't the case, since there is no MS without Sharingan in the first place. Rinnegan is a part of the same chain, it cannot manifest without Indra's chakra, the latter already influencing the eye nerve and turning it into Sharingan/MS. It doesn't simply require Hagoromo's chakra recreation (otherwise, Naruto would've also awakened it after receving his chakra directly), it also requires these influenced eyes or eyes' "tendency" to be influenced by special chakra which only Sharingan users, no, rather Indra's descendants, possess. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 09:20, December 7, 2016 (UTC) :::Well, if you are going to completely ignore what I say and think your own version, of course you will disagree. Mangekyou Sharingan is just the highest stage of Sharingan. It's awakened with one tomoe, then second appears and then third, Mangekyou is end of the progress, think of it as a child growing up into adult. Mangekyou is part of the Sharingan Kekkei Genkai, not a separate Kekkei Genkai... so you are getting this part, but Rinnegan is different, it's NOT part of the same chain. It requires both Indra and Asura's chakras, which equal Hagoromo's chakra and I already explained to you why Naruto didn't awaken doujutsu. He simply wasn't given the same aspects of Hagoromo's chakra as Sasuke. Say I have dark brown hair and my child inherits my genes, so by your logic he/she must also have dark brown hair, well that's not how it works. Just like one's genome, Hagoromo's powers are vast, just because he shares some of his power with someone doesn't mean all of his powers are transferred to the individual. The best proofs I can give to you, that Rinnegan ISN'T part of the Sharingan line, but rather a sibling doujutsu is that Madara still could switch back to Mangekyou Sharingan, not only could, but rather he had to in order to cast Genjutsu, because Rinnegan doesn't have Sharingan powers with the exception of Sasuke's, hence it's not an evolution. Second, Nagato couldn't use Sharingan, well why do you think that is? Because Rinnegan is freaking separate doujutsu, not an evolution of the Sharingan, not part of the same chain. Madara's eyes could be only either Sharingan and Rinnegan at a time, never both at once. Each doujutsu having different powers, they are 2 separate doujutsu which are not progression of the other. Nagato received Madara's eyes transformed into the Rinnegan, hence there is no Sharingan chakra in there, end of story.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 16:57, December 7, 2016 (UTC)